Généalogie and Heritage

Source: Foundation for Medieval Genealogy: Kings of France, 888-898 and 922-936

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Type	Valeur
Titre	Foundation for Medieval Genealogy: Kings of France, 888-898 and 922-936

Entrées associées à cette source

Personnes
ROBERT IV 'le Fort' Comte de Paris AH01

Texte


http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANCONIA.htm#Robertdied866A

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Notes


A. KINGS OF FRANCE 888-898 and 922-936 ROBERT "le Fort", son of --- ([815/30]-killed in battle Brissarthe 2 Jul 866). Robert´s birth date range is estimated assuming that his known sons were born in [850/60] as suggested below. The parentage of Robert "le Fort" is obscure.....lengthy discussion of possibilities........Whatever the truth about Robert´s parentage, his career in France is recorded with certainty from 853, although Merlet suggests that he was named in an earlier charter dated I Oct 845[20], a co-identity which is not beyond doubt: Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks restored property to Hincmar Archbishop of Reims which he had previously granted to his supporters, including property granted to "…Rotbertus…", by charter dated 1 Oct 845[21]. A document issued by King Charles II "le Chauve" dated Nov 853 names "Dodo episcopus, Hrotbertus et Osbertus" as missi in "Cinnomannio, Andegavensi, atque Turonico, Corboniso, et Sagiso"[22], which may refer to Robert “le Fort” or to Robert Seigneur [comte] à Sesseau who is named above. The Annales Bertiniani record that "Pippinus" joined with "Rotberto comiti et Britonibus" in 859[23], which suggests that Robert had earlier rebelled against King Charles II in Brittany. Robert submitted to the king's authority, when he was given command of the march of Neustria, confiscated from the Rorgonid family for supporting the revolt of Louis (later King Louis II) against his father[24]. Regino records that King Charles II "le Chauve" invested "Rodberto comiti" with "ducatum inter Ligerim et Sequanam adversum Brittones" in 861[25]. The Annales Bertiniani record that "Rodbertus" attacked "Salomone duce" [duke of Brittany] in 862[26]. The Annales record that King Charles´s son, the future King Louis II "le Bègue", rebelled against his father in 862 and, heading an army of Bretons, defeated "Rotbertum patris fidelem" in 862, after which he burned Angers yet again[27]. Count in the march of Anjou [862/63]: the creation of the "march" of Anjou is probably dated to the early 860s, as the Annales Bertiniani name "Rodberto, qui marchio in Andegavo fuerat" in 865[28]. This change of jurisdictional status must have been insufficient to control the Bretons and the Vikings because Robert is named in the Annales Bertiniani in 865 in the context of King Charles imposing direct rule in the area by sending "Hludowicum filium suum" into "Neustriam" and granting him "comitatum Andegavensem et abbatiam Maioris-monasterii et quasdam villas illi", while recording that Robert was compensated with "comitatum Autissiodorensem et comitatum Nivernensem". "Le comte Robert" donated "certains biens…situés dans le comté de Blois, dans la viguerie d´Averdon au village dit Gabrium et faisant partie du domaine de Saint-Lubin" to Actard Bishop of Nantes in exchange for other property "situés au même lieu et dépendant aussi du domaine de Saint-Lubin" by charter dated May 865[29]. Merlet suggests that this charter indicates that Robert "le Fort" was Comte de Blois at the time[30]. However, another possibility is that the county indicated was the "march of Anjou" as noted above. Comte d'Auxerre and Comte de Nevers 865. The Annales Bertiniani name "Rodbertus et Odo" as "præfecti" in the Seine valley area in 866 when recording that they repelled the Vikings who had sailed up river as far as "castrum Milidunum"[31]. "Odo" is presumably identified as Eudes Comte de Troyes, who died 1 Aug 871 (see CAROLINGIAN NOBILITY) and who, according to René Merlet, may have been the brother of Robert "le Fort"[32]. The Annales Bertiniani record that "Rotbertum et Ramnulfum, Godtfridum quoque et Heriveum comites" were defeated by the Vikings at "Brieserta" in 866, where Robert was killed[33]. The Adonis Continuatio records that "Robertus quoque atque Ramnulfus…inter primos ipsi priores" were killed by the Vikings in 866[34]. The name of Comte Robert's wife or wives is not known. There are indications that he married more than once, maybe three times. One possibility can be dismissed immediately: a passage in the Chronicle of Saint-Bénigne, interpolated into the Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines, names "Regine, que cum esset iuvencula fuit concubina Karoli Magni iam senioris" as wife of "Roberti Fortis marchionis"[35]. This is chronologically impossible as Regina must have been born in [785] at the latest (the birth of her older son is recorded in 801), and therefore was far too old to have been Robert´s wife. Three possibilities remain: [m [firstly] ---. As noted above, Europäische Stammtafeln names "[Agane]" as Robert’s first wife[36]. As stated above, this is probably based on the Miraculis Sancti Genulfi which names "Agana filia…Byturicensium comes…Wifredus [et]…Oda coniux" as wife of "Roberto viro primoque palatii Pipini regis"[37]. As discussed above, this would mean that Robert "le Fort" was the same person as Robert Seigneur [comte] à Sesseau en Berry. If that is correct, Agane would have been too old to have been the mother of the recorded children of Robert "le Fort". The suggestion would therefore be consistent with Agane having been Robert´s first wife.] [m [secondly] ---. If the theories outlined here relating to Robert´s possible first and third marriages are correct, the chronology dictates that the wife who was the mother of his children, born in [850/60], must have been a different person. There is no indication who she might have been apart from the charter dated 20 Feb "anno XXVII regnante domino Carolo…rege" which is discussed above. If, in accordance with one of the possibilities suggested above, the dating clause in that document refers to the reign of Charles III "le Simple" King of the West Franks, the donor must have been the future Robert I King of France. In which case, the relationship "avunculus" described in the document could have been through the donor´s mother which, if correct, would mean that Robert´s second wife could have been the niece of the brothers Eudes Comte d´Orléans and Guillaume Comte de Blois. This suggestion is inconsistent with the alternative interpretation of the same document, whereby Robert “le Fort” was the son of a sister of Eudes and Guillaume, which is one of the possibilities regarding Robert’s ancestry as discussed above.] [m [thirdly] ---. Some secondary works assert that the wife of Robert was Adelais [de Tours], widow of Conrad Comte de Paris et d'Auxerre [Welf], daughter of Hugues Comte de Tours & his wife Ava ---[38]. If that is correct, Adelais must have been Comte Robert's second or third wife as Conrad died after 862, by which date Robert's known children were already born. The assertion appears to be based on the Chronicle of St Bénigne de Dijon which names "duo filii Rotberti Andegavorum comitis, frs Hugonis abbatis, senior Odo…Robertus alter"[39], "Hugonis abbatis" being the son of Conrad Comte de Paris and assuming that "frs" is an abbreviation for "fratres". Settipani states that the passage is a 12th century interpolation and has little historical value, although he does suggest the likelihood that Comte Robert’s wife was a close relation of Adelais (without providing the reasoning for his statement)[40]. A family connection between Comte Robert and Conrad Comte de Paris is also suggested by the former being invested with the county of Auxerre in 865, after this county was confiscated from the latter (as recorded by Hincmar[41]), on the assumption of some basis of heredity behind the transmission of counties in France at that time (which is probable, but remains unproven). Comte Robert & his [second] wife had three children: 1. EUDES [Odo] (in Neustria [after 852][42]-La Fère-sur-Oise 3 Jan 898). 2. ROBERT ([860]-killed in battle near Soissons 15 Jun 923). "Rodbertum fratrem Odonis regis" is named in the Cartulaire de Saint-Bertin[64]. He was elected ROBERT I King of France in 92

A. KINGS OF FRANCE 888-898 and 922-936

ROBERT "le Fort", son of --- ([815/30]-killed in battle Brissarthe 2 Jul 866). Robert´s birth date range is estimated assuming that his known sons were born in [850/60] as suggested below. The parentage of Robert "le Fort" is obscure.....lengthy discussion of possibilities........Whatever the truth about Robert´s parentage, his career in France is recorded with certainty from 853, although Merlet suggests that he was named in an earlier charter dated I Oct 845[20], a co-identity which is not beyond doubt: Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks restored property to Hincmar Archbishop of Reims which he had previously granted to his supporters, including property granted to "…Rotbertus…", by charter dated 1 Oct 845[21].

A document issued by King Charles II "le Chauve" dated Nov 853 names "Dodo episcopus, Hrotbertus et Osbertus" as missi in "Cinnomannio, Andegavensi, atque Turonico, Corboniso, et Sagiso"[22], which may refer to Robert “le Fort” or to Robert Seigneur [comte] à Sesseau who is named above.

The Annales Bertiniani record that "Pippinus" joined with "Rotberto comiti et Britonibus" in 859[23], which suggests that Robert had earlier rebelled against King Charles II in Brittany. Robert submitted to the king's authority, when he was given command of the march of Neustria, confiscated from the Rorgonid family for supporting the revolt of Louis (later King Louis II) against his father[24]. Regino records that King Charles II "le Chauve" invested "Rodberto comiti" with "ducatum inter Ligerim et Sequanam adversum Brittones" in 861[25]. The Annales Bertiniani record that "Rodbertus" attacked "Salomone duce" [duke of Brittany] in 862[26]. The Annales record that King Charles´s son, the future King Louis II "le Bègue", rebelled against his father in 862 and, heading an army of Bretons, defeated "Rotbertum patris fidelem" in 862, after which he burned Angers yet again[27].
Count in the march of Anjou [862/63]: the creation of the "march" of Anjou is probably dated to the early 860s, as the Annales Bertiniani name "Rodberto, qui marchio in Andegavo fuerat" in 865[28]. This change of jurisdictional status must have been insufficient to control the Bretons and the Vikings because Robert is named in the Annales Bertiniani in 865 in the context of King Charles imposing direct rule in the area by sending "Hludowicum filium suum" into "Neustriam" and granting him "comitatum Andegavensem et abbatiam Maioris-monasterii et quasdam villas illi", while recording that Robert was compensated with "comitatum Autissiodorensem et comitatum Nivernensem".

"Le comte Robert" donated "certains biens…situés dans le comté de Blois, dans la viguerie d´Averdon au village dit Gabrium et faisant partie du domaine de Saint-Lubin" to Actard Bishop of Nantes in exchange for other property "situés au même lieu et dépendant aussi du domaine de Saint-Lubin" by charter dated May 865[29]. Merlet suggests that this charter indicates that Robert "le Fort" was Comte de Blois at the time[30]. However, another possibility is that the county indicated was the "march of Anjou" as noted above.
Comte d'Auxerre and Comte de Nevers 865. The Annales Bertiniani name "Rodbertus et Odo" as "præfecti" in the Seine valley area in 866 when recording that they repelled the Vikings who had sailed up river as far as "castrum Milidunum"[31]. "Odo" is presumably identified as Eudes Comte de Troyes, who died 1 Aug 871 (see CAROLINGIAN NOBILITY) and who, according to René Merlet, may have been the brother of Robert "le Fort"[32].

The Annales Bertiniani record that "Rotbertum et Ramnulfum, Godtfridum quoque et Heriveum comites" were defeated by the Vikings at "Brieserta" in 866, where Robert was killed[33]. The Adonis Continuatio records that "Robertus quoque atque Ramnulfus…inter primos ipsi priores" were killed by the Vikings in 866[34].

The name of Comte Robert's wife or wives is not known. There are indications that he married more than once, maybe three times. One possibility can be dismissed immediately: a passage in the Chronicle of Saint-Bénigne, interpolated into the Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines, names "Regine, que cum esset iuvencula fuit concubina Karoli Magni iam senioris" as wife of "Roberti Fortis marchionis"[35]. This is chronologically impossible as Regina must have been born in [785] at the latest (the birth of her older son is recorded in 801), and therefore was far too old to have been Robert´s wife. Three possibilities remain:

[m [firstly] ---. As noted above, Europäische Stammtafeln names "[Agane]" as Robert’s first wife[36]. As stated above, this is probably based on the Miraculis Sancti Genulfi which names "Agana filia…Byturicensium comes…Wifredus [et]…Oda coniux" as wife of "Roberto viro primoque palatii Pipini regis"[37]. As discussed above, this would mean that Robert "le Fort" was the same person as Robert Seigneur [comte] à Sesseau en Berry. If that is correct, Agane would have been too old to have been the mother of the recorded children of Robert "le Fort". The suggestion would therefore be consistent with Agane having been Robert´s first wife.]

[m [secondly] ---. If the theories outlined here relating to Robert´s possible first and third marriages are correct, the chronology dictates that the wife who was the mother of his children, born in [850/60], must have been a different person. There is no indication who she might have been apart from the charter dated 20 Feb "anno XXVII regnante domino Carolo…rege" which is discussed above. If, in accordance with one of the possibilities suggested above, the dating clause in that document refers to the reign of Charles III "le Simple" King of the West Franks, the donor must have been the future Robert I King of France. In which case, the relationship "avunculus" described in the document could have been through the donor´s mother which, if correct, would mean that Robert´s second wife could have been the niece of the brothers Eudes Comte d´Orléans and Guillaume Comte de Blois. This suggestion is inconsistent with the alternative interpretation of the same document, whereby Robert “le Fort” was the son of a sister of Eudes and Guillaume, which is one of the possibilities regarding Robert’s ancestry as discussed above.]

[m [thirdly] ---. Some secondary works assert that the wife of Robert was Adelais [de Tours], widow of Conrad Comte de Paris et d'Auxerre [Welf], daughter of Hugues Comte de Tours & his wife Ava ---[38]. If that is correct, Adelais must have been Comte Robert's second or third wife as Conrad died after 862, by which date Robert's known children were already born. The assertion appears to be based on the Chronicle of St Bénigne de Dijon which names "duo filii Rotberti Andegavorum comitis, frs Hugonis abbatis, senior Odo…Robertus alter"[39], "Hugonis abbatis" being the son of Conrad Comte de Paris and assuming that "frs" is an abbreviation for "fratres". Settipani states that the passage is a 12th century interpolation and has little historical value, although he does suggest the likelihood that Comte Robert’s wife was a close relation of Adelais (without providing the reasoning for his statement)[40]. A family connection between Comte Robert and Conrad Comte de Paris is also suggested by the former being invested with the county of Auxerre in 865, after this county was confiscated from the latter (as recorded by Hincmar[41]), on the assumption of some basis of heredity behind the transmission of counties in France at that time (which is probable, but remains unproven).

Comte Robert & his [second] wife had three children:

1. EUDES [Odo] (in Neustria [after 852][42]-La Fère-sur-Oise 3 Jan 898).
2. ROBERT ([860]-killed in battle near Soissons 15 Jun 923). "Rodbertum fratrem Odonis regis" is named in the Cartulaire de Saint-Bertin[64]. He was elected ROBERT I King of France in 92